Speaker 1: So I would say that up till most recently. And I know that this is part of, you know, this is the podcast, this is where we align on the story side, but, but it's really been NFTs as these collectible product projects that are tied by an aesthetic really rather than narrative. And so, you know, you'll cut out the 10,000 or so JPEGs essentially, and, and not to be disparaging, but you know, you have these images and they're cool. And then you try to reverse engineer story, uh, to get, you know, kind of backwards to say, this is where the images have come from. Let's make that cool. Um, we're going about it in kind of the reverse where we wanna have a lot of story and the underpinnings of the mythology built out very built out before we actually put the collection out to market. Uh, and that's where Winnie can talk more about the specifics of some of the stories that we're developing. But, uh, you know, we believe that in the communities, they want more than just the ownership of the artwork, but they also wanna participate in creating the lore around the characters and the story universe. So that's the origin of jump cut. That's what we're doing is, is having that as a central kind of tenant of developing story universes in a decentralized way to kind of foster this like shared community ownership.

Speaker 2: Welcome to story first, a podcast where we shine a light on the web three Mavericks that are leveraging the power of narrative to create immersive NFT worlds. We investigate the art and science of story building through insightful interviews with creators, collectors, and investors. For those who seek a richer NFT experience. This is your portal to a vivid new realm of fiction. Story. First is a production of story. Prima Dow, whose mission is to encourage the growth and success of story focused NFT projects through research, education and project incubation story prima Dow brings you the blockbusters of tomorrow.

Speaker 3: Hello and welcome to the hashtag story. First podcast, a weekly show where we talk about web three NFT projects focused on storytelling. We believe story focused, NFT projects are built to last and will form the foundation of a new breed of hugely influential properties in gaming entertainment, art beyond the story. First podcast highlights the Mavericks and leaders. leveraging the power of NFTs to tell the blockbuster stories of tomorrow. My name is Devin Sawyer and I am joined with my esteemed co-host and co-founder Barry AKA crayons, Barry say, hi.

Speaker 1: Hello everyone. How are you today?

Speaker 3: Sure. The audience is doing great Barry and, uh, Barry and I represents story prima, which is a decentralized autonomous organization with a mission to accelerate the growth and success of story focused NFT projects through media research, education and project incubation today on story first, we're honored to welcome Winnie Kemp in Eric Broberg and Eric Braumberg from the jump cut community jump cut is pardon?

Speaker 4: Hi, sorry.

Speaker 3: oh, hi. Yeah. Sorry. Yes. Hello. uh, Eric say hi. Hi. Hi. Awesome. Jump cut is an exciting organization because it shares much of the same values, uh, as we do at story prima CarTech, the founder could not join us today. Um, but I found a quote on his website, which I think does a pretty good job of summing up the mission of jump cut. I'm gonna read that before we get into the show in the traditional top down Hollywood process, a studio execs gut and relationships decide what gets made and by whom the result underrepresented creators, as well as audiences who are yearning for participation in storytelling are left out of the creative process where rewriting the script for how content is developed with communities at the center. We create story universes with web three communities, and the end result is content that resonates with audiences, a more inclusive approach and creative and financial co co-ownership for the super fans. I love that quote and again, really excited to have the jump cut team on to talk today. Um, so let's start, uh, with you Winnie, please introduce yourself and tell us your origin story.

Speaker 4: Um, well, it's so awesome to be here. Thank you so much for having us. Um, my name's Winnie Kemp, I'm the head of development at jump cut. Um, and my background is in film and television. So I spent many years in a bunch of different careers, but always found my way back to storytelling. Um, and you know, I've worked at places like CAA and I worked at a studio called CBS, um, they' film division, and I worked at a company called super deluxe, which was, um, a startup that was founded by Turner that really combined digital and traditional media for gen Z and millennials, and really targeted that audience. Um, my passion has always been, um, you know, finding those underrepresented voices that have a story to tell the world that oftentimes have more of barriers to entry in terms of really breaking into Hollywood.

Speaker 4: And I was really lucky at my last job at super Dulux, but we were working with a lot of those voices. And, um, so, you know, while I was there, I worked on a show called chambers for Netflix, which was, um, a wise supernatural drama that, um, that we found out after we released that it was the first show to star native American lead. Um, we didn't that at the time we only found out afterwards when, you know, sort of native Twitter was talking about it and like, oh my God, this is such a big deal. And then, um, I also, um, developed and produced a show called this close, which, um, we did two seasons of for Sundance channel and that was the first show to be created by Def riders. And a lot of it was ASL. And so very similarly, I feel like it's such an exciting space in web three to be able to find new stories, find new creators, um, and help them get their stories out into the world.

Speaker 1: Amazing. Cool. Eric. Hi, your origin story. Yeah. Hi, I'm I'm Eric Romberg. I'm the head of strategy at jump cut. And, uh, my background has been mostly kinda at the intersection of, uh, business and, and brands and media, I would say. And kind of where, where that ven diagram crosses. Uh, so working with heads of creative, like Winnie, uh, we worked side by side with, and the kind of development of creative, but also, uh, in figuring out business models and how to, how to scale, uh, the, you know, scale story in a way and what that might mean and try to have some way to have any sort of, uh, equation or formula for how to do this. Obviously there's this like a magic and an alchemy and an amazing story that you capture. But when I try to come in and say, how do you risen repeat this?

Speaker 1: Uh, and so most recently, um, for prior to this for years, uh, it was the founder and head of a science fiction studio called dust. And that was in a larger studio that was, uh, backed by these private investors ended up getting sold to at and T. Uh, but what we really focused on was how to, uh, very much super serve the science fishing community, which at the time, and that'll lead up to kind of what, where we're at now, but at the time that was very web two focused that was through Facebook and YouTube and having groups and more groups and different, you know, kind of conversations through, uh, the, the gatekeepers of how to formulate these communities. And, uh, and then we started to aggregate content to put in front of them first short films, then longer films, then comic books, and then started to get more collaborative.

Speaker 1: And again, a lot of things that have led to where we're at with, with web three, not to jump the gun, but we were trying to kind of patch work that together before, before it existed, because we felt like that was the best way to do so. So, um, so yeah, built that up over five years now, it's the, the, the, the brand and the channel is in like 22 countries and, uh, has millions of viewers across different platforms like Roku and Samsung. And so, uh, so that background brought me to jump cut and, and what our kind of central thesis is, feels very much within the, my, my DNA.

Speaker 3: Amazing. Yeah, I think, uh, Eric, we'll have to spend some time maybe after the show, uh, introducing you to our legends of cipher project, which is a science fiction narrative, um, that we're pretty proud of and excited. Um, but you know, I, I, I'd love to stay with you, uh, on, on, on the story of jump cut and the origin story, like tell us, I, I, I, I spoke about the mission, um, from CarTech, but tell us a little bit more about what you're seeing in the market, as it relates to web three NFT as a technology, um, community in web three as a vehicle, just tell us about how junk cut is trying to position itself on the market.

Speaker 1: So I would say that up till most recently, and I know that this is part of, you know, this is the podcast, this is where we align on the story side, but, but it's really been NFTs as these collectible product projects that are tied by an aesthetic really, rather than narrative. And so, you know, you'll put out the 10,000 or so JPEGs essentially, and, and not to be disparaging, but, you know, you have these images and they're cool. And then you try to reverse engineer story, uh, to get, you know, kind of backwards to say, this is where the images have come from. Let's make that cool. Um, we're going about it in kind of the reverse where we wanna have a lot of story and the underpinnings of the mythology built out very built out before we actually put the collection out to market.

Speaker 1: Uh, and that's where Winnie can talk more about the specifics of some of the stories that we're developing, but, uh, we, yeah, we believe that in the communities, they want more than just the ownership of the artwork, but they also wanna participate in creating the lore around the characters and the story universe. So that's the origin of jump cut. That's what we're doing is, is having that as a central kind of tenant of developing story universes in a decentralized way to kind of foster this like shared community ownership. Um, and, and as you mentioned before, what that does is kind of pulls the, all the, whatever guardianship, all the decision making, uh, away from the gatekeepers and kind of the top of the tower and is, and that's what the decentralization does. And so, uh, at the same time, you have to have some architecture of the narrative.

Speaker 1: We feel like otherwise it's just kind of a cluster. If we're just like, say everyone, get in a room and come up with a story about, you know, these wizards or these, you know, in our case, we'll talk about fighters or our investigators or whatever it is. And so we've recruited some, some great Hollywood talent cause we do, we don't wanna discard the what, what, what is already there? I mean, we do think there's some great storytellers that we already work with that winning in particular works with. So we've pulled certain ones in and said, okay, let's build guardrails. Let's have, I'd almost say it's an 80 20 rule of what we're doing of saying there's 80% of the story that we can develop, but we wanna make sure we're leaving, you know, call it 20% for our community to build for their character, their lore. And so we're building some technology on top of that, which we can get into. So it's, it's about the storytelling itself, but then the mechanics, uh, frankly from an engineering side that we are, that we are also developing, so that, that can kind of plug and play, uh, eventually to any story based community, what, you know, snowboarders or, you know, people in Alaska or, you know, whatever it is. And you kind of hone in and say, okay, here's kind of a bit of a toolkit to do so yeah. Where that's what we're doing.

Speaker 3: I think about, I'm glad you mentioned Alaska, cuz I think, I think we need, Barry's gonna jump in with some questions for sure. Cuz we often talk about, you know, with community storytelling, um, you know, wanting the community to be involved from the ground up, particularly in the lore, but how do you create that, um, infrastructure for the community to engage with some structure and debate? So yeah, I would, would love to talk a little bit about that. Barry, any questions around that? Uh, well I was gonna say we, we, we, we have come to the same conclusion that a little bit of structure is necessary. Um, cuz if you don't, we don't th you think without some structure you don't get as good a product. And I kind of think of like breadcrumbs, like for, for the people, whether it's the, so I write I'm a fiction, I write fiction. Um, and I think in good stories, the authors just drop little breadcrumbs as the story goes and it lets the readers follow along while still filling in like the most important kinds of details like col was super good at it. Right. You'd need to say something super vague about these elves and people have made up entire worlds about his vague description. So mm-hmm, , it's cool to, to, to hear that you guys are trying to

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 3: Take that into a process.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 4: We've sort of talked about is a little bit like Dungeons and dragons, right? Yeah. You have the DM who is sort of the guide and the story, but then each individual can create their own character, can create their own worlds. Can, you know, go on different adventures. Right. And, and it's almost like, um, well I've sort of seen it as like, you know, we have Hollywood people who are so great at building these worlds and these mythologies in a very complex manner sort of help set the super structure where then the community can rise up and start building from the bottom up. Right. And so it's really left, um, not vague, but just very open, like an open world, um, to play in with a lot of crus because I think what I love about these community based projects is that it allows access for anyone.

Speaker 4: You don't have to live in Hollywood. You don't have to have studied screenwriting. You don't have to have gone to film school. Most people have families or live in, you know, not LA, not New York, not a big city. And all of these people, I feel like there's this innate need for people to have a creative outlet of some sort for some people that might be drawing for some people, it might be storytelling for some, it might be, you know, making clothes or whatever it is. Um, but they just haven't really necessarily had access to be able to contribute to something like this before that has a route forward in Hollywood. And so, um, for us, it's super exciting for those people to bring their stories and their experiences, but they may not have the, the, they may have the stories, but they maybe don't have the sort of, um, framework of how to take that raw material and put it into something else. And so that's really where I think, um, for us, that kind of super structure comes in to give them enough stuff to play with. So they're not just grasping out of nowhere and thinking, I don't even know where to start, where they have a character, an NFT that they've minted their own hero, for example, for upper cut, um, which is one of our projects, um, where, you know, there is already a lot of structure around it, but it's purposefully left wide open for anyone to come in and be able to build off of.

Speaker 3: Awesome. Yeah. I, I think I misspoke a little bit vague was the wrong term. Uh, open is better and not even open-ended as much it's, it's like they hint at something without giving too many details, but it it's very much on purpose. Yes. Um, that's the, a good artist or storyteller does that, so good call

Speaker 4: And

Speaker 3: Yeah, I wanna come back. Sorry, go ahead. Wi didn't wanna catch you.

Speaker 4: No, no. Also, um, I sort of remember like the era when Amazon came in to like Hollywood and said, we're gonna do this better. We're a tech company, you know, all this is dumb. And then they were like trying to crowdsource scripts. So people were just like writing into a script altogether and, you know, had all these different things that they were trying, which I think what they found is exactly Barry. What you were saying is somebody has to be leading the way. Right? Like otherwise it just sort of collapses. Um, if there's not, um, you know, at least a light, a light that's like guiding people, um, it just is too hard to, to make decisions and to, you know, have a creative process that leads to something coherent.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And I don't, I think people get like that idea. I think people can get kind of confused if that person that that's leading the idea. It's not a question of them being better at whatever the thing is. I think you just need somebody or a, a very small group of somebodys, like driving the car. They're not necessarily better drivers. It has. It has to go somewhere so, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think the story tech, um, which is a, a term that's come up as we've been doing these podcasts, um, for story first, the technology is an enabler, but it's the community that is the kind of force behind the narrative. Um, but you've got a creative leadership that needs to emerge to bring the community to some, um, comprehensive destination. So, um, you know, Eric, I'd love to, as we go through and talk about upper cut training as one of your lead projects, as a good example of community based decentralized open storytelling, I love to weave in some of the technology perhaps that you're using as enablers. Um, so let's keep that in mind. Um, so please jump in as we go, but Winnie, let's talk about, um, let's talk about uppercut training. I understand it to be something from some of our con early conversation and research, quite a very exciting universe that tries to bring some qualities of in real life activity to the storytelling, which is I think very exciting. Um, why don't you tell us a little bit about the origin story of the project and, and, um, what you guys are doing there in web three with the community?

Speaker 4: Yeah, of course. So uppercut training club is our first project and, um, we're building a metaverse for action and martial arts fans. And so the NFT component is really a 3d fighter that everybody will min. And it's really cool about that is it's not just like your PFP profile picture, but a full 3d rig of an actual, um, character, right? So people who are in gaming or in, um, animation, or know how to use those things can actually use their fighter and create content around it in a real way. Um, but on top of that, we're, um, for our community building a gamified storytelling experience, which is gonna be guided by top Hollywood creators who worked on franchises like star wars, John wick, Marvel, and hosted by three incredible champion martial artists and stump performers. And the story behind it is really about, um, joining this mysterious underground, you know, training club where then you'll uncover the mystery of this lost martial art called tonana. And we'll be guiding them through that experience, not just on sort of like the mystery and the, and what's happening around that club and who founded it, but also helping the community to build more around their own fighter. Um, that complement sort of the mythology and stuff that's being uncovered during that. Um, first what we're calling season zero

Speaker 3: Is, is uppercut is uppercut kind of, uh, like your proof of concept, like the idea of taking the, the, the storytelling tools in putting 'em into practice.

Speaker 4: That's right. So one of the things that the storytelling is going to do is sort of engage the community, not just in the story, but also giving them certain missions essentially to accomplish throughout. And so some of those things will be, you know, in real life, like, um, you know, really focused on sort of the idea behind martial arts, being complimentary, not just about physical strength, but also mental wellness and spiritual wellness. And so it could be, Hey, go out and, um, go to the gym, check in, uh, and then upload a photo. And so we have a platform that we've built, um, that members will be able to go into and we can disperse these missions, which some of them are, you know, things like going to the gym. Some of them are story, story missions. So, Hey, create a backstory for your character.

Speaker 4: Here's the three questions for this week, submit it, um, about your character, um, where they'll be earning points that they can, um, accrue both for their factions. So there's three different factions within what we're calling Domos within, um, the training club and also for themselves. So there will be like individual and group competitions where at the end will be, you know, different prizes and stuff, or like, depending on how many of these missions that you accomplish. And so the, the platform is really, um, the basis of which we're building the story, but it's something that we really believe can be helpful to most creative communities in terms of managing, um, what, what kinds of tasks that they're giving to the communities be able to keep track of their creative contributions on the other side, Eric, what did I miss on that?

Speaker 1: Uh, no, that's, that's, that's it Amy, we, you know, it sounds there is now Matthew, you say it I'm like, oh, there's a, there's a lot going on there. Um, there is some complexity, you know, cuz there and is trying to bridge the, the, you know, the IRL as the kids say verse, you know, the digital and the actual right. And I think that, which we think is really unique and, and kind of bespoke to what we're doing and we think that's something other people would come up once we get the, again, the toolkit they'll come up with 10 times cooler, always to, to utilize that on the functionality of that. And so, you know, these, these quests are actually being gold out by the leaders of each of these faculty by these like senses. And these are actually, these are real people. We, these are top martial artists who are like third degree black belts that we've pulled onto the project to help in the immersive storytelling.

Speaker 1: And they're actually showing certain moves and doing flips and things that to each week. And, and that is kind of adding, uh, there's, there's more that happens each week so that it builds and that you have, uh, a real reason to be involved early on. And, and then as the story grows and evolves and kind of intertwines. Um, so yeah, that's, that's part of what we think is pretty special on the story side. And I think on the one last thing to say on the tech side as well, is that, and this is the web three of it all is that you do, you, you, you connect your wallet and then there's a you're authenticated. And then there's, there is this direct relationship you have now that we can airdrop these tasks. We can just the notion of what that is. And there's no intermediary, like there has been that we think is part of the empowerment that comes, uh, through web three. I mean, it's almost kinda why, why do this here? Why do this now? Right. What's different with this, what's different with blockchain. And so we, that's why this is part of the undertaking we're doing in 2022 versus 2018 or something as far as what this is. We think that there are, this is a confluence of the technology aligning with the kind of storytelling that we think will be cool and is participatory, uh, from the community.

Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems unique. It seems to me, um, you might have other market intelligence, but, uh, you know, of all the projects we've been looking at, it, it seems quite unique. Um, that you're kind of story driven. Narrative is largely based on, you know, we talked earlier about creative leadership. We see a lot of that, but you've got almost this, I don't know, what's the right term, iconic leadership. That's sort of providing a, um, a motivation, these, these sense, these martial artists leaders that are promoting the engagement with the community, that's quite unique. So you're leveraging the blockchain technology, you know, identity wallet, frictionless cryptocurrency air drop. I'm sure a token will be involved at some point with these characters in real life. That's I wanna pull on that string a little more to what is the connectivity or what is the main connective tissues? It's the missions, um, that drives the story, like talk a little bit more Winnie about the, about

Speaker 4: How you're

Speaker 3: Creating this universe

Speaker 4: From week to week. There's also gonna be a video component to it that it's released. Okay. Um, that the trainers will be talking to their, um, to their members, to their, the people who are in their Domos and motivating them to do certain tasks. Right. And also revealing story along the way. And, um, and so that's sort of like the, the key component of it is motivating and, um, revealing story week after week and there's puzzles and, and a mystery that people are solving along the way there's gonna be fight moves that are released when, um, that the, that the, that the stunt choreographers have designed that then they can release week after week when the do almost gain enough points together. Right. The idea is like, oh, we work together to release, um, this fight move every week, which then ties into the bigger mystery in the bigger puzzle.

Speaker 4: And so I sort of likened it to like, you know, a combination of a lot of different things that exist, but haven't really existed in this way together before, right. There's almost like the training, the collector cards kind of Pokemon element to it with the NFTs. Right. But then there's sort of the D and D aspect that, that we talked about before, which is sort of this, you know, Hollywood storyteller kind of being the, being the guide, but then people, you know, in the community being able to fill in the story below that. And there's a little bit of an episodic element because of those video portions. There's a little bit of interactive because of the missions. Um, and so in my, when I try to describe it to people, sometimes it's challenging because it feels like there's not really anything that feels exactly like this.

Speaker 4: It's utilizing technology to be, to build a community around a new kind of storytelling. That is, I, I, this, this guy, I was on a panel on blue by mind. He, uh, said that ILM, um, had sort of coined it very early in that when they were doing more AR stuff, which was about how we're moving from storytelling, which is one way to story living, which is experiential. And you can experience a universe, you know, all around you and you participate in it rather than someone else dictating to you. Right. And I think to me, that's the difference is that it's a collaborative experience. And it is something that both, you know, both sides get a lot up with the community, both the community and the creative guides, right? Because there's this feedback loop in between, um, that is constantly, you know, um, going from, you know, the people who are running it to the community, that's consuming it and back and forth. And I think you can just be so much more reactive in real time in terms of what people are responding to, and then iterate on that in such a really special way that doesn't exist right now in Hollywood. It's so slow. It takes forever. A movie could take 20 years from script to screen, and then when an audience consumes it and this cycle is so much faster and much more, um, vibrant,

Speaker 1: I mean, the, the end goal of what we're all doing is basically replicating a procedurally generated computer game in real life. It's like, you, you make it, you make an experience, do a VR or AR AR it's a combination, and you can create a new story that people can participate in and live out. Yeah. Super cool. I, I don't know of any. Yeah, that's super cool. I, I, I don't know of any projects that are incorporating, uh, IRL stuff, like as like they do meetups or whatever, but not the same as, uh, driving the story. It's cool. Yeah. We think, we think it will be, that's asked, is there a people concept? That's why the answer is yes, because we also are our own Guinea pigs in mm-hmm in this, you know, this collection will launch this summer. Um, we're still kind of fine tuning exactly when, and we gotta have enough momentum with it.

Speaker 1: And, you know, our discord has to be a certain size and blah, blah, blah. But we are, we we're excited about it. We know we have the right stuff, but at the same time, you kind of don't know until it's out into the world, which things people gravitate towards, which things they don't, the stuff that I think is maybe the coolest stuff I've ever heard of. They might be like, they might yawn, you know, and say, I don't that, that does nothing for me. Or I, you know, I actually, I'd rather just not be part of that, but this other thing that's really interesting to me. And, and yeah. So, so you never know coming out in the summer, um, what are some of your activities, um, to generate awareness about the project other than amazing world class podcast? Like story first, the first stop on the train? Exactly.

Speaker 1: I, I mean, I can pick up a few. I don't, we need chime in. I don't think we have the secret sauce. Uh, if we did, I would just, I would own a bunch of board apes right now. Um, and, and I own zero. So I, I, we, we have, there's a, you aren't, some of the stuff we're doing is trying to make sure that we get in front of the, the, the influencers in the web three community, uh, and, and really in particular focus on the long term, like when we get in front of 'em and talk through what we're doing in the same way we're doing with you and, and make sure we emphasize that we really think this is gonna be the future of storytelling. At least one version of storytelling. I mean, movies are not going away. Shows are not going away, but we think this is NAS and will grow.

Speaker 1: What do you think, what specifically do you mean is the future of storytelling? Uh, web three story utilizing the mechanics and some of the backend technology, whether it's this platform we're building or, or someone else does something, and it's, there's you have XP built it, you know, there's a turn thing. Is it more like a video game? Is it less like a video game? Does it have more AR do you wear goggles the whole time? I don't know all that stuff, but that they'll be an entire ecosystem within web three storytelling. That's what we're pretty convinced of. And we think we're, we're doing some interesting and innovative things in it. And so I, so that's, that's one thing is getting in front of those people who have a larger megaphone than we do, and they could put out a few tweets and all the whales jump in or all they just, and, and, and the diehard community comes in in particular, the community that we're looking to to work with.

Speaker 1: So depending on the project, you know, we've talked about upper cut. We have another one that we'll mention as well, but anybody who's into martial arts and into the action genre, uh, we think will really be into this people in video games, people in anime, again, people in dunes and dragons board games. I mean, I, I just, as talking, I'm like people who play settlers, I feel like would really like this, you know, like, so I think we don't wanna boil the ocean. It can't be too many groups where it's like, this is for everybody. I mean, but we're already, we are trying to drill in and get in front of the people we already think would raise our hand and say, yeah, this is for me, you know, this feels right.

Speaker 4: So I think another focus is like, how do we engage the creative community? That's already in web three and embracing, you know, web three storytelling. And we've been doing a lot of Twitter spaces with other, you know, storytelling, NFT collections, or people who are, you know, trying to, you know, push ahead in this like brave new world. Um, and so that's really important too. I think because I, I do believe that like rising tide lifts all boats, and if one story collection becomes the next board apes, then that helps all the other ones behind it. Right. And so we're all in this together in terms of finding a new way forward. That makes sense. And, and so we've been trying to make those connections as well, as well as people who are in the Hollywood community who are interested in web three, I feel like the most innovative storytelling happens in independent film because, you know, these big studios can't take the risk, right?

Speaker 4: Like they can't take the risk on new talent. They can't take the risk on new ideas. If it doesn't feel like anything that they're already doing, then it's a little bit scary for them. And so what three is such an incredible space for creators to come and find a community, you cares about the story that they're telling and not have to depend on those purse strings to open for them. Right. Um, and so that's super exciting is figuring out who are the people who are trying to, you know, who are great storytellers, who might find a home in web three, because in the end with a creative community, like a community like this, it's important to have a creative, a creative, um, community that is, you know, excited about storytelling because ultimately that's, what's gonna make the community more vibrant and more active.

Speaker 3: I've been trying to argue with Devin and my other buddies that, uh, the scarce resource in, in web three are creative people. Like there's a bunch of genius coders, right? Like I can't code at all. Like, that's not me, but there's not, there's not a lot of like high quality stories out there. There are a lot of people working on it currently, but there's not a lot that exists right now. Like you look at the apes or punks, and there's not a lot of story around that. Like you talked about earlier, they started with the, with the art first, and then they're trying to build it, uh, after the fact. But I'm,

Speaker 4: I think that

Speaker 3: I can't wait for creatives to like, get more, I don't know, more popular or just to create more good stories.

Speaker 4: So, yeah, I think it's interesting cause there's a lot of companies that start on the tech side that like then are like, oh, well we wanna do story. But then, you know, there's also a lot of companies that are coming from Hollywood that are trying to do the tech side, but that don't have an understanding of that. And so I think jump cut really it's roots, roots. Aren't both right. And so we're trying to bridge that where we're using the tech to bus serve the story. Um, and also, you know, the story can enhance the use of the tech. Right. And so I think, you know, it goes both ways and, and so we're hoping to find like a good, um, a good, a good balance and a good niche in that.

Speaker 3: Yeah. I'm super curious to see when you're, when your framework comes out, cuz there's lots of programs about to help with, with, with, with creating visual art and, and making music. But I don't know of anything that helps to write a story and I've been studying writing hardcore for like five, six years now. Like not too. I'm super curious to see what you guys come up with.

Speaker 4: Yeah. I think

Speaker 3: Just gonna ask, uh, I was gonna ask about the platform, if you guys could tell us paint that picture a little more mention the platform a couple times is the, the technology or the engagement vehicle that kind of is a, maybe I could think of it as a bridge between your creative leaders and your senses and your community. Can you tell us a little bit what the users or your audience might experience with the platform

Speaker 1: Wants to, you wanna go person who could speak best? So is actually our head of product who isn't on here, but, but we will, we'll take a, a crack at it. Cause it's still in kind of we're in both designing the UI.

Speaker 4: It's writing's he writing a blog post about it right now?

Speaker 1: Yes,

Speaker 4: Actually we already have one. I think we might have just, yes, we slide.

Speaker 1: Slide it to you guys first. Um, yeah, there's there's will some of the mechanics I could tell you is for the quest, the nature of those and how to push those to people who have signed up and how they are in what we're calling our, our Domos, um, we're calling it a bounty board, I guess, of some sort where you, you it's, it's how to gamify people who are able to move, do things first and figure out puzzles that we're putting out. Or, or as Wendy mentioned, we have, can you upload

Speaker 4: Story prompts or, you know, there's puzzles involved in the, in the mystery, right. And so people can try to solve the puzzles and then they're gaining points and building that way.

Speaker 3: So it'll be an app or a desktop, uh, adapt, adapt if you will. So I connect my wallet to it and everything gets written on a blockchain. Okay. Very

Speaker 1: That's right. That's right. And so there's certain amount things. I be on chain. Some of it that will be off chain, um, we're actually determining, let's get too far ahead, like other, other different, uh, coins and other places are coming to us saying, Hey, well, what if you launched on an honor thing instead of, you know, did you, do you just go Ethereum or do you go somewhere else? Could you be a bigger fish in a smaller pond? Could, are there different benefits to that? Whether it's reduced gas views, whether, you know, it's proof of steak, risk, proof of work type stuff. And, and so that's all stuff that we're actually still, we haven't made 100% decisions yet on, and we're just having some great conversations with different places and seeing, and, and, and some places are very motivated to have stories on there, larger, you know, Hey, build it on our, on our chain.

Speaker 1: You know, you use our coins and do this and that. So we still haven't determined that, but I would say as far as the inner workings and the mechanics, like we said, and there's, there's what I think's really cool that I, as we described is there's like a, this cooperation, uh, that I, as I, as I call it. So it's kind of this there's, you have to cooperate and compete with the different groups. And there's actually, and this is part of the larger arc of what we wanna get across that like cooperating is oftentimes more beneficial than competing. And I don't know that's and not to be like, woo, woo, positivity. But we do yeah. In this because we, we can, but we also wanna let the, the audience and the community and everyone, especially the ones who are really involved get to decide that. So you don't, you don't have to do that in order to be at the highest level of the martial arts that you learn, you can kind of, you can go it alone or you can go with your group. And so we're, uh, trying to have the pre build of pre-build of, of, of different permutations of where the story might go

Speaker 4: And we can be responsive to where the story's going as well by putting out missions. Right. That's

Speaker 3: A word. Yeah. Responsive.

Speaker 4: Yeah. So I think that's sort of part of the, part of the experiment, I guess, of like this first trial run that we've put together is to see sort of how the story can be reactive to the community and how the community reacts to the story and then take those lessons right. And iterate. Um, yeah. I I'm, I'm so excited to see like what the

Speaker 3: What's going on. Yeah. I think you should be. I mean, I love the cooperation term. It, you know, and, and the way you're both kind of describing the, the, the cooperation and then at the same time, the competition, and is one way better and the other, and both kind of fit together, it's kind of the ethos of web three where we're, you know, we're certainly trying to build projects and stand them up and, um, you know, be profitable at the end of the day. Um, but it is a very cooperative community, which I think is what attracts people to the community. And what gives you a shot at being able to engage a community in the creative process with you. Mm-hmm um, so yeah,

Speaker 4: There's much talent too. I think that's, what's so cool about it is, you know, I remember I met with somebody who was part of like a, like self-publishing company where they're using a lot of data to find these writers. And he was like, well, you know, I found this guy in Tennessee, he like drives a ups truck, you know, but he's like an amazing writer, right? Like he might not ever have had the chance to like, try and pursue that in New York or whatever. And, um, you know, Stephen King was famously worked in a laundromat, you know, Raymond Carver was a janitor. Like there people who have incredible stories, incredible talent who maybe don't have access. And, you know, for every one Stephen King that maybe made it through there's maybe a thousand or 5,000 people who, you know, maybe have the stories or could have done that, but just, you know, didn't have the access, didn't have the opportunity, didn't have, you know, a way in. And, um, and so that's why I'm excited to sort of open up to pretty much anyone who, who is excited about this universe in this world to be able to come and tell stories in it,

Speaker 3: Love it. It's very democratizing. Um, yeah, the giant computer in the sky, anybody can get on it with the smartphone where some, any, any sort of device and with, with projects, like y'all's, uh, it, it lets people bring their ideas to life easier. So especially combin combining that with new, like, it's so much easier now to create a movie or like, I don't make film of me like that, but like the technology like make films as easy. Now you can just use your iPhone. Like, it's so much easier to bring your creative vision to life now, and then anybody can do it if they can just get on the internet. It's super cool.

Speaker 4: Yeah. And I think each step forward in terms of technology, enabling people to be able to CR I mean, look at, look at like the music industry where people used to have to spend thousands of dollars an hour to record a studio, to rent a studio, to be able to record music. And now people can just stay at home. Right. And so that allows such a depth and breadth of music that wouldn't exist. Otherwise, if there were only gatekeepers and the cost was so high. And so, you know, I think it's sort of almost breaking down the doors so that the floodgate can open and, and people can, you know, um, participate. Right. Like I think that's, that's the most exciting part about it, um, is you don't know where it's gonna go. It's the most terrifying part about it as well. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah. But I think we've what we're seeing is, and what you guys are brilliantly taking advantage of is when you remove friction and commerce, such as with cryptocurrency and the fluid nature of how it moves from individual to individual, without intermediaries taking sharp little pieces at every stage, you do create that as Barry said a democratized way. And when you create a, a project like yours, that it sounds like you're working on inventing the incentive model that can reward, um, individuals in real ways participating, because you're gonna own your IP. You have the opportunity to great stories with your own IP participate in the main storyline. All these things are factors that allow for kind of the distribution of the economics that would typically be held at the top when you've got a top down production mm-hmm , um, where you're fighting a nice spot in the middle as with, as you said, structured storytelling, but allowing the community to shape it from the bottoms up.

Speaker 3: And yeah. It's um, yeah, we, we hope the same thing. I mean, our goal and vision with story prima and our own project, legends of cipher is we hope that, you know, people can make a living or, um, a decent amount of income working on our projects and stories because we share a common, a common view of, of the narrative. Um, and you know, we want to foster talent in these communities. So yeah, I love it. Um, can it, you know, on that, like, uh, I know you're still kind of working out tokens and things like that. Um, but can you share any insights you might have as to where kind of the incentive models are working? Is it through missions? Is it through, you know, the IP te can you te tell us a little bit about that or is it too soon?

Speaker 1: Um, we think the mission models will, will work. I mean, we've touched upon that a bit. So that's probably what I've said is probably it's about all I know

Speaker 3: As far as OK, fair, but I'll

Speaker 1: Say, uh, I will say for the IP, you know, it is, it is important because it's like that we will be rewarded in that there is this, uh, financial co-ownership and what the larger collection is versus an individual character. And within the storytelling, what we talk about is that you're never sure which character will break out. You know, we're really, uh, purposely crafting this to, to be diverse and diverse in how they look diverse in the point of view, diverse in the storytelling background and something that Winnie and I talk about is that in the action space, there's always kind of, it's like, there's the Johns and the jacks and you, and, and, and I love 'em, but know you got John w and John Rambo and John McClean and Jack Bower, and, you know, Jack Reacher and Jack Ryan, et cetera. Right. You just kinda, it's like, it's just, it's what it's, you're always kinda, they always kinda look the same.

Speaker 1: They all kind carry the gun the same way, you know, the kicking them doors the same way. And, and, and I don't want to disparage that at all. I, I like it. I'm all for it, but there's, there's such an opportunity to, to have more and to have some, a whole other representation in the space. And so, uh, I mentioned that because we think that this IP will, will as start to build it will stand out. And again, whether it's, I mean, for, for our participation in what that is in our, in our economics and versus the people who are crafting story or own that particular NFT and what the commerce is on that and their, their participation in what the economics are as well. And, and, you know, it's something we've thought through, I guess, is what I'll say of, of where we have high hopes for.

Speaker 1: And even as one example, the characters that are being developed are being ultimately built, or at least rigged and shot in the unreal engine in unreal five part of the reason a we just think that's really cool and people aren't doing that, but B it's cuz we'll have those assets. So that one day when we wanna make the video game in 18 months or whatever, we can, we can pretty easily import that. And, and then do that. Uh, and so that's so, so we are betting on that the, the future, you know, we call exploitation, but really yeah. Development, growth and utilization of, of the IP.

Speaker 4: Like one of the other things that we say is sort of like, if you imagine Marvel had thought about, you know, inclusiveness from the beginning right now, they're sort of like dredging up characters from like random places that Noah's heard of and they're doing it very well. But I think for us, like we're starting with this set of, you know, people of different body types, different abilities, different, you know, ethnicities and backgrounds where, you know, it's gonna be really exciting to see what people create around that. And that, you know, my belief is like, everybody can be a hero, but you don't often see yourself represented that way. Right. And so I like, yeah, that's great point. We really hope that this is the place where people can see that they are a, hero's what you do, not what you look like, you know, um, that's true course you have, or you know, how tough you are.

Speaker 4: You could kick somebody in the face. Like our hero has been, their definition of hero has been so narrow for a really long time, a lot of times because of Hollywood and what's described as heroic. And, you know, I think that we have an opportunity to have storytellers come in and tell their version of what a hero can be. Right. And it can be really different and exciting. And I think like we all sort of, kind of need heroes right now. Um, it's, it's such a crazy time in the world that like, you know, spreading, spreading that out in the world, I think is an important, important part too, just secondarily, even outside of web three. So

Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I, you know, that's, I love it. You're, you're creating this, this, this structured environment that allows for open storytelling with a baseline opportunity for diverse, very diverse character sets participation, um, and, um, you know, ultimately redefining possibly what heroes are, what it means to be a hero, what a heroes look like. And that could be at scale. Like, it doesn't sound like there's gonna be 10 heroes emerge that are new it'll sounds like there's gonna be thousands. So that's pretty cool. And definitely something to watch. Um, I was also really excited to, you know, to hear your background as both accomplished, I guess, Hollywood, um, creative leaders, producers, founders, um, would love to hear as you made this transition and you're getting quite close to launching your first, um, major NFT project with, uh, upper cut. Can you both talk about some lessons learned as, you know, veterans in your own, right? What are you, what are the lessons learned as you tried to be successful here in web three?

Speaker 1: You go Winnie,

Speaker 4: You go first, I'll go after you.

Speaker 1:

Speaker 4: That's a really good question. By the way, I started think about it for a sec.

Speaker 1: um, lessons learned, you know, I let's see, I think one lesson is that the truth to me in some ways, and, and we've, we've, we've already, we've hinted at this. I do think that you, in the, in the, even in like a revolutionary new storytelling, or however we wanna define this, it's like, it's actually, the incremental moves are, are meaningful, uh, and, and start to expand and explore new territory more. So I guess what I mean is that, so in this case, we have pulled in some, some whatever tried and true Hollywood talent, uh, we have a filmmaker who's shot on agents of shields and book above a Fe and, uh, flash and, uh, a number of just massive shows and films. And we have a major writer who is writing on the, the John wick, uh, TV series. That's gonna come out called the continental and, and, and, you know, there's a number of people.

Speaker 1: I mean, our board is consist of, uh, of large major producers, like Lawrence Bender who produced all of Tarantino's movies. And I think that that, that helps us, that we we're almost, we're trying to build from the inside out. Like, we're, we're like a mold that comes in and it's like, okay, we, we know we know the playbook. And so that's how we can change it from the inside out instead of just being outside of the gate, trying to kick it down. Um, I think times when that has been attempted, that I've ever seen, it's never worked. And so you, you, you, I mean, even to the point of like a Netflix going out and saying, we're gonna make deals with Scorsese and the Cohen brothers, everybody, I mean, you end up, it's like you, there are, I think you, you can, uh, find the common ground. And I think that's a lesson of, um, that the traditional storytelling shouldn't be just overhauled, but we can make these tweaks that will, that will make this more democratized and enhance the storytelling, uh, you know, overall

Speaker 3: Awesome. Bringing the best parts from your experience. I think that's right from Hollywood and yeah. Incremental improvements to, to, to fit to web three, as opposed to trying to fit web three to you.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's, that's more, that's more succinct. We put

Speaker 3: The benefit of listening to

Speaker 4: Me having for me, I having worked in like these diversity and inclusion issues for so long, and having worked with so many and know, knowing so many, you know, emerging writers and directors and, and producers who have been, you know, banging their head against the wall for the past, like 10, 15 years, I sort of realized that these bigger corporations who hold so much power, right, because they have the per strings, they have the distribution, um, they, if they wanted to change, they could, I think that was like a pretty re re recent realization, right? Like all it takes is to fund more things from those people just spend the money. And I, I think that what I realize in each step that I've taken in my career has been more and more towards smaller, more entrepreneurial, um, type companies, because, you know, if you are doing something better and it works outside of those places, then they have to hurry up to, to, to, to follow, right?

Speaker 4: Like that's the only way that they change is if somebody does it better. And, and so I think that's where I've always sort of like, you know, then I was like, went into digital, and then now I'm like excited about what three there's so much opportunity to build newer systems and, you know, welcome like fresh voices. There's so many people who came from that, like web series, you know, kind of phase where people could just put stuff up and find distribution on YouTube and then build their audiences. Right. And they, would've never sort of, it would taken them so much longer and it would've been so much harder path if that didn't exist as a way to be able to be discovered and be found. And so I think to me, web three creates this incredible opportunity for those voices that maybe want to work and be storytellers, but don't necessarily wanna be hold into like the rules of what that takes, um, because of who holds the power in the industry.

Speaker 4: It's such an incredible opportunity to be able to come and build something for yourself and have a direct sort of line to your audience and the people who care about what you're doing. Right. Because I remember cardic, our founder had sort of explained it to me. I kind of didn't really get it for a long time. I was a little bit confused, but he sort of drew out this thing on a whiteboard that was like, right now, you, for Hollywood you've creators, then those creators find a producer who helps them. And then the producer takes it to a studio who then finances it. And then there's a distributor who puts it to the audience and then you have the audience and there's all these layers and all this time that goes in between, right. And everybody takes a cut in between. And so what web three really is doing is putting the creator right next to their audience.

Speaker 4: And you're removing all those people in the middle. So that there's a more direct relationship and more of a, again like that sort of back and forth between the creator and the audience. So that both sides of that creates so much more value for each other. Um, the creator, you know, either retaining their IP or having more contr control over their story, but then the audience having that really direct relationship, being able to co contribute to the things that they love. Right. And feel like a part of something. And, and so I think that's what, you know, everything that Jumpcut is doing is focused on, you know, how do you have great story? How do you have audiences who wanna contribute and love what those stories are? Right. And, and building an ecosystem where that can really flourish

Speaker 1: You either of you or you Devi know the musician a yes, that, that might be what I call. I was gonna say, I listen to a podcast with him and he talked about ex exactly about removing the gatekeepers, um, and the ability for fans to prove they're the biggest fans, if they so choose. Yeah. And also the way that, like what, okay, he released an album's an Ft and it raised like $13 million or something. But the person that bid the highest got the opportunity to make a song with him, like, you know, however they make the music. I don't know. But like, that's one thing the NFTs in blockchain, uh, are, are, are making possible. It's just super cool. It's exactly what you're talking about. But if you hadn't heard that podcast, it's interesting. cause I'll check it out. I know. Yeah. Bla, I actually know the guys it's on.

Speaker 1: Bankless what they're doing. Um, they're actually doing actually, yeah, I know that podcast. I didn't hear that, but I, but I do know that they're actually going a whole nother level, another step. So beyond himself, uh, they've raised some funds to have oh, cool. Blockchain, distributed music. And they would issue a certain amount that hold it, like kind of how, when like Snoop but death row. And then soon after he was like, alright, there's a thousand tees that are going out of my new music and that's it. So, I mean, there's a thousand people who get to listen to it or at least own it, I should say. Uh, and what the kind of royalty structure is for that. And so is doing that in a larger way with some, with some big money backers actually I think will come up. Oh, cool. I'll check that out. I didn't know that. Cause I guess I brought it up. You can apply that same sort of

Speaker 3: Logic to any sort of creative endeavor. It's not just music. Yes. Like, like NFTs currently lend themselves very well to visual arts and music, but there's definitely people working on doing it for like novels or for fictional stuff. Uh, graphic, graphic novels lend themselves well, too, cuz it's obviously visual, but that's just that same idea. Uh,

Speaker 4: I think the music business, honestly, I mean all, all of them are broken, but like the music business seems the most fundamentally broken in terms of the imbalance between, you know, how much artists actually make for per stream is just like crazy. And apparently it's just like people got in a room and they just decided it and like, didn't think about it. And then now that's what everybody goes by. And yeah, it's just like pennies, right? Every people artist, right. It's insane. And they make

Speaker 3: Don't, they make almost nothing from like Spotify and

Speaker 4: Like

Speaker 3: They're much less than they used to when albums

Speaker 4: Every 10,000 streams and be like 0.0, oh oh oh six or something crazy. Right.

Speaker 3: Oh crazy. That's nuts.

Speaker 4: I don't know. Don't quote me on that, but it's really just no,

Speaker 3: No, I point no, that's not. That's not how it should work. Yeah. And I think, I think the point you made, I think Wendy, you, you described it as the creator sits beside the audience in the process. Right. And I think that's the major, the major enabler of web three, both by technology, but also by the ethos. Like that's why people mm-hmm are here in web three wanting to build and create cuz they understand that it's an opportunity to do it very differently. Yeah. And very differently just happens to be, um, by many terms better. Um, certainly when you're talking about the fan being beside the creator, um, I really want to jump to my last question. Uh, cuz it would be such a perfect segue, but I have to resist because I want to just take a moment and, and let the audience know, okay. Upper cuts coming this summer. I wanna, I want to get a character. I want to amp it up. It's gonna be the greatestfreaking martial artist action hero. This world's ever seen. How do I get involved? What am I looking for? Who am I following?

Speaker 4: Yeah. So you can find more information at our website, which is uppercut training club.com and then also pretty much everything, um, goes through Twitter. So that's at uppercut NFT and um, you can find a link to our discord there or on our website as well. We have a newsletter, a whole bunch of different ways. You can sign up for information and however you wanna, um, glean it. And um, we have a pretty active community on, um, uppercut training club two. We, I mean, sorry on, uh, in our discord where right now our artist is really finalizing a lot of the art and um, you know, giving a lot of sneak peeks. I think we're really believe in the sort of build, build, build in public, um, transparency sort of ethos as well. And you know, he's engaging right now on the art with the community and saying, Hey, what do you guys think about this? And um, the community is giving all their feedback on the art as well, which is starting to really come together.

Speaker 3: Oh, awesome. Okay. Yeah. So you've got some active community that people can check out, follow you, but also get involved and start to see what's happening. Exactly. Amazing. Great. Okay. Um,

Speaker 1: You know, they'll help shape it. They won't just hear about it. They

Speaker 3: Actually yeah. Right. Love it.

Speaker 1: Have a say. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah. No, that's, that's amazing. Um, and we'll post all that, uh, in the, in the show notes here, um, for our, our podcast and the YouTube, uh, publication as well. Um, so okay, amazing. I have one, I have two final questions. One of them, I think you've kind of already answered and, and whether, and, and it's whether we think NFTs are fat or enduring, but I, uh, I'm guessing by the, um, the way you guys are building for the long term. I, I think you think they're enduring. So given that you're both also, um, Hollywood veterans, um, this question might be fun for you. How long in terms of time, months, weeks, years before, uh, a decentralized autonomous organization or a community on behalf of the producers are up, uh, accepting a mainstream award academy award Emmy or something like that. How long do you guys think and will it Beka?

Speaker 1: Hmm.

Speaker 4: I feel like, like the web three world works so fast, but anytime you enter back into the like web two kind of Hollywood thing it's then it just sort of like slows down again. I'm gonna be optimistic. Cause I'm feeling optimistic today. I loved having this conversation with you guys, like three years. that's that's, I'm I'm pushing it, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna go with that.

Speaker 1: I'm trying, I like optimism I'm I would do the same, except I'm thinking, you know, apple just accepted for Coda. Apple's sitting on like a trillion dollars in cash. We're not sitting on a trillion dollars in cash. So it's like, I'm trying to, I'm trying to do the math of like how long it

Speaker 1: Takes. So, but yeah. You know, you never, I think, I think at least one we'll just, we'll just break through. I just think that that's part of what this is. This is breeding ground for something to be so creative that it's just starts to feel undeniable. And so I think I'm being optimistic as well, but I'll say yeah, within five years, I think I would, I could say that because, um, yeah, I'm not saying the entire thing will be terraformed and redone in the image of web three. I don't think that, I think that it, but I do think that there'll be certain things that just really break through that are just like, wow, that's, that's so creative. That's so compelling. And I think that those

Speaker 4: Mean you are seeing the big agents and stuff already stepping in. Yeah. Right. Like they're signing the bigger creators they're, you know, shopping projects. There are a lot of cool, you know, um, there are a lot of cool web three projects that are just starting to shoot their films and shoot and create what they're doing right now. Right. Once that starts to go out. Um, I think it will only accelerate, um, once people see the model and then that person can say, Hey, this is the model. Then everybody's like, okay, follow right. Um, hundreds already happening

Speaker 3: Hundred percent. It's funny, you said three years Winnie because, um, you're not the first guest there. In fact, the majority have said three years, so I'm loving the optimism too. And you know, it's another reason to get involved. Right. You, you know, I want to be in the community, that's having a governance vote on, okay. Who should go to the, to the academy awards except like the award for us. You know what I mean? Like it's gonna be a boat one day. That's the dream. So listen, um, we've shot past the hour. Um, we've only touched on one project from jump cut. I know you have more, so we'll call out follow jump cut in the show notes. We'll have the link. It's an organization. That's doing some really innovative stuff. Gotta get involved in upper cut. Um, join the discord. Now get involved in the creative and we'll see more this summer, but uh, Winnie Eric. I wanted to thank you so much, not only for coming to web three with all of your experience, but more so for being on the show with us today. And I really hope that we can continue to collaborate, um, with your project and with what we're doing here at story prima. Um, so we can shine a light on the best stories being built in the world through web three. So thank you so much for your time. Thanks guys.

Speaker 4: Absolutely love being here. Thank you so much for having us.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Devon. Thank you, Mary. Yeah. Good chat. Thank you very much guys, to talk soon.

Speaker 4: All right. Thanks. Bye.